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Forest & Bird » Native Plants & Forest

1. Gerry
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   We often focus too much on saving birds and forget that these are but one part of a rich, interdependent forest ecosystem. The loss through possum destruction of key plant species such as Fuchsia, kohekohe, puriri or rata can be disastrous for the forest itself where these plants occupy a vital niche such as colonisers of fresh slips or of ridge crests.

   Browse destruction can also be disastrous for bird species that depend on the nectar or fruit or leaves of those plants to get them through crunch times of the year when there is little alternative food available (eg kowhai in spring, early fuchsia flowers found on warm coastal dunelands in spring). I once saw a presentation about a single puriri tree that was the cornerstone of a whole range of tuis' territories because it was so vital for nectar for all of them.

   Periodic flowering years of some of the tree species are also vital in giving birds a breeding season boost (eg rata species). One of the less known fields is the dependence of native insects on those nectar boosts from the flowering season. I'm sure insectivorous birds are also attracted to the swarms of insects that can be found around for example flowering rata. Keas love eating beech seeds. When beech does its periodic seeding (mast) years about every 4 years you will see kea in the autumn spending a lot of time in the tree tops eating beech seeds. Does this then lead to a good kea breeding season? They breed in winter.

   I'm not sure if we know much about another example which is earthworm numbers under certain trees versus other tree species. If there are larger worm numbers under say Fuchsia trees relating to the big drop of leaves in autumn, is there a relationship also in the number of giant Poweliphanta landsnails found under fuchsia trees hunting for their prey, earthworms? If so then the loss of Fuchsia trees because of possum browse will have a negative impact on earthworms and then on snail numbers. However maybe this is getting too complex. We know that possums have a much more direct impact on giant native landsnails. Possums are the main predator of these ancient New Zealanders.

   

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   Posted 2 years ago #

2. ruby
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   Congrats on a very well written propaganda post for ten eighty Poison,as per usual.
   It was very emotional ,but a bit over the top as usual it was just another post full of excuses for making nz into a poioners paradise when there is no real need for it specially not to the ecesses of aerial 1080 drops.
   plenty of tuis round here no puriri trees to be there cornerstone , just a few possums fantails falcons magpies,pukeho and other wildlife whom they coexist with without the aid of mass poison drops.
   When we have a good beech mast year there is more than enough for everyone albiet to many mice that year due to that fact.
   It really upsets me to see that sick cartoon portraying all 1080 opponents as possums or possum lovers ,
   Possums are gods creatures as well and deserve to die decently.
   You could and should do a lot better gerry such a shame dont you care about the efects of 1080 areial bombardments on the planet and otherb birds and creatures no One knows the future problems all this mass poisoning will cause but there will be a price to pay there allways is for playing god with nature like this.

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. JamieS
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   Thanks for the posting Gerry, I really enjoy reading what you have to say.

   "The god argument" Ruby, thats low, do you believe literally in creation?
   It seems the concept of evolution in geological time (approximately 90 million years in New Zealands case) escapes you.

   Were Don Merton et al playing god when they plucked the last Black Robin from Little Mangere Island? Or the last Kakapo from Stewart Island? If so can they claim to be benign, beneficial gods? Should we unfence the Albatross sanctuary at Taiaroa Head and record the passing of the Albatross?

   You need to read Silent Spring. You need to learn to subtly wield the critique of chemicals, rather than waving them around aggressively like a giant paper mache club.

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. Oscar
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   "Silent Spring"? What do you think Rachel Carson would say about aerial 1080?

   Like it or not, ruby, we do "play God", whatever we do. Conservation issues may start as biological problems, but ultimately are cultural - we decide what we like and don't like, and how we will alter things. Nobody is saying we should just stand back and see where things end up, because we don't believe we would 'like' the outcomes.

   Isn't ground-baiting and trapping poisons "playing God" as well?

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. JamieS
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   I suspect Rachel Carson would understand. She was a realist that looked at eco-systems in a holistic way.

   She was interested in outcomes not rhetoric. If the term had been invented I am sure she would have been an advocate of "biodiversity".

   I think she would recognise that those advocating controlled use of aerial 1080 in the face of a devastating plague of introduced predators ripping apart the "fabric of life" ... are not the modern day equivalent of the poisoners she was reacting against as Ruby seems constantly to suggest.

   Posted 2 years ago #

6. Oscar
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   Interesting to see "Silent Spring" and Rachel Carson being used, simultaneously, on both sides of the 1080 debate then JamieS! :-)

   It would be fascinating to hear her thoughts - chapters like "Indiscrimnately From the Skies" sure have a familiar ring!

   If I recall correctly, she also argued not necessarily for a complete ban on DDT, but rather for careful and limited use? There are parallels there with 1080 - while there are many who want no 1080 anywhere, anytime, I get the feeling that most people are more concerned about how it is used.

   Posted 2 years ago #

7. Piwakawaka
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   Hi Ruby and others. Here's a piece written by a SCIENTIST on 1080 - its actually a good, easy to read piece and it might help to understand.

   Our daily fix of 1080 poison
   WORLD OF SCIENCE - BOB BROCKIE
   The Dominion Post
   Last updated 09:37 18/08/2008

   Every time you drink a cup of tea you take in some 1080 poison. This is because in Sri Lanka, or wherever it grows, the tea plant produces the poison in its leaves as a natural chemical defence against browsing animals.

   The people in Perth, Western Australia, have been drinking 1080 poison for ever. This is because many plants native to Western Australia also produce it as a chemical defence and it leaches into municipal water catchments. The stuff has never harmed any Australians.

   Years ago, I visited a poison factory in Wanganui where possum pellets were made and saw a worker there eat one of them. He did this every time visitors looked in to show them that small amounts of the substance are harmless. The worker, and another pellet-eater I know in Christchurch, are still hale and hearty.

   Contractors and the Conservation Department take every precaution to avoid 1080 finding its way into New Zealand's water supplies. None is dropped near towns or within 50 metres of bigger streams or rivers.

   Aerial drops and every operation must comply with at least nine acts of Parliament. Before and after the aerial poisonings, cattle herds are tested for TB, the condition of the bush is measured and birds counted.

   Medical officers of health usually recommend that streams are tested for traces of the poison after the drops.

   Few uneaten pellet baits lie around for long. They disintegrate after light rain and wash into the soil where microbes degrade the poison.

   If any 1080 leaches into streams, more microbes and aquatic plants further detox it.

   Barely detectable traces have been found in only a few of thousands of water samples – and never in any town supplies. It does not accumulate in your body as do some other poisons. Your body detoxifies small amounts of the poison.

   It can cover vast areas of otherwise inaccesible hinterland, is relatively cheap to use and usually kills 95 per cent of the possums. In response to the sustained possum control programmes (costing more than $50 million last year), fewer cattle herds now carry TB, many forests have recovered, and bird numbers have gone up.

   1080 has helped protect our dairy and beef export markets, our bush and our birds, but is the citizenry grateful? Seems not, as fearful activists are trying to ban the stuff.

   How come?

   I think the media is largely to blame for this misplaced fear, as it headlines the occasional accidentally poisoned dog, kea or farm animal, and gives star treatment to ill- informed, hand- wringing, paranoid chemophobes, fear- mongers and ecofreaks crying wolf about "poisoned ecosystems".

   Despite planes spreading the stuff up and down the country for more than 50 years, sodium fluoroacetate has never poisoned or made any New Zealander sick, except possibly the odd suicider.

   Innumerable scientific surveys show that the chances of 1080-contaminated water damaging anybody are about zilch, yet the naysayers persist. They haven't a scientific leg to stand on.

   Nobody likes poisoning animals, but till something better is invented we should be thankful that we have 1080.

   Posted 2 years ago #

8. ruby
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   http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/10/take-nobodys-word-for-anything.html
   take bobs word for nothing
   this is a more open insight into bob brockie oe dominion postf th

   http://www.democrats.org.nz/OurNews/MediaReleases/tabid/111/selectedmoduleid/545/ArticleID/125/Default.aspx
   a lot of others dissagree could go on forever these people seem to have a lot of the answershttp://www.ermanz.govt.nz/news-events/focus/1080/hearings/addinfo59.pdf
   could look up all sorts of conflicing evidence everywhere its all been done before with other super poisons im afraid they all are poisonous and occur naturally somewhere.
   I know its a nasty thing killing animals anyway but if it needs doing they should do it humanely and safetly.
   and those guys enviromently safe pest control seem to know there bussiness and value nature and the enviroment and could do the job better as they say Piwakawaka

   Posted 2 years ago #

9. ruby
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   Apogies that last link dont seem to work try this

   http://www.1080.org.nz/1_Welcome_to_ESPC%3B_an_overview.html

   Posted 2 years ago #

10. Gerry
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    I went on the website referred to by Ruby. I have always acknowledged that there are a lot of well meaning people who would like a world where we didn't have to control pests through aerial 1080 operations. I'd love it if we didn't have to do it and our native plants and animals could live in harmony with all the introduced species. But sadly we all know that is not the case. The website Ruby refers to suggests that we should use ground methods such as trapping and poisoning to kill possums. It sees the market for possum fur being enormous. (It even proposes planting introduced nut trees and berries to enrich New Zealand's native forests!!).

    The trouble is that if the market for possum fur is so brilliant (and I saw Dawson Fur's presentation on Country Calendar claiming this to be the case) then where are all the possumers in the huge chunk of South Westland that I live in? Despite the claim that there is a fortune to be earned, the possumers simply aren't here. The work is too hard, the terrain is too rugged, the climate is too severe and life is just too tough for most people to do this in 2009.

    As well as being involved in nature tourism, showing people rare mistletoes and native birds, we produce merino wool on our farm. The reputation of merino wool for the fashion and outdoor clothing industry dwarfs possum fur. Despite all the hype about the wonders of merino, my brother in law/business partner wrote to me this morning in the depths of despair about the merino sheep industry. He is a life long farmer but notes with great sorrow that the price paid to farmers for this high fashion wool (about $10/kg) is the same as was being paid 20 years ago. $10 then would be the equivalent of about $30/kg today. Exactly the same will occur for possum. There is a finite quantity of possum fur that the market will accept for the high priced products made from it. The more that is then produced the lower will be the price.

    Meanwhile coming right back to the forests that are the theme of this discussion, we are fast running out of time to save the key plant and animal species unless we support ongoing and expanded aerial 1080 operations.

    Scientific research in South Westland showed that
    # In the Jackson River between 2001 and 2007, with no possum control, 96% of tagged beech mistletoe died.
    # 46% of Kaka flower feeding activity in Southern South Westland was in beech mistletoes.
    # In the Buller (Bellbird Ridge, Heaphy catchment) a single possum was found to eat more than 60 Powelliphanta snails in 1-2 nights.
    # In the Hope River (South Westland), where possum numbers have been kept at a very low level, 1-2% of all fuchsia trees die each year
    # In the Jackson River (about 40km north of the Hope) with no possum control over the last 4 years to 2007, 15%, 20%, 31% and 38% of all fuchsia died in each of the 4 years the fuchsia were monitored.
    # In South Westland 55% of bellbird and 40% of tui flower feeding activity by these birds was in fuchsia.

    The conclusion. If we want to save these special New Zealand trees, bird and snail species (found nowhere else in the world) from the ravages of possums, we have to act now. There is no time to continue decades of philosophising about the merits of different pest control systems because the rate of loss/death of these key native species has now been shown to be almost unbelievably high.

    Posted 2 years ago #

11. JamieS
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    Those numbers are horrible.

    Oscar - yeah its interesting, and Silent Spring is a great book, even though she also suggests all sorts of non specific biological agents for "guiding nature" that we would be not so keen on today.

    She's writing in a completely different time and space, but the main theme remains true, that we have to have to see past the species to the "web of life" and get over our prejudices, vested interests and ignorance to protect the integrity or complexity of these systems to the best of our ability.

    Posted 2 years ago #

12. Gerry
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    Thanks Mandy for bringing this discussion topic back on line.

    Are there any North Islanders out there who can give us any details about what are the key tree species that disappear from their forests with possum infestations. Is Fuchsia a crucial species there for birds or is it joined by the range of other species that are found there such as kohekohe, puriri or northern rata? I know pohutakawa is specially vulnerable and saving this was a big motivator behind Project Crimson. I was shown, from a plane 5 years ago, Northland forests where possums were out of control and giant northern rata were standing dead above the canopy. Presumably these trees are as crucial for bird food as are the southern rata down here. If the rata trees go do the birds disappear also?

    Posted 2 years ago #

13. auckland anne
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    Yes, thanks Mandy. Lots of useful information and ideas here - especially including points-of-view some of us might not otherwise hear...So long as they're not too rude or aggressive...8-)

    Gerry - making advances to the Botanical Society up here to help answer your query. Hopefully someone'll be inspired enough to get back. Just know that pohutukawa is like ice-cream to possums!

    Posted 2 years ago #

14. ruby
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    Thanks for looking at that site gerry i can see your point that the people on the website could not possibly cover all nz and especially south westland and fiordland.
    I think why they like possum fur is cause its so soft as opossed to the various sheep furs that it can be combined with ,and it certainly seems to make a big difference to the products produced,nothing is ever certain gerry the fur market the economic situation, or our life on this planet but they certainly seem to have a better option/alternative to the mass poison drops .
    I think most people who oppose 1080 are against the indiscriminate aerial drops only a very few want to protect the possums although i would like to see them have a humane end to there lives as well if possible.

    Posted 2 years ago #

15. kukupa
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    Hey Gerry. I took this photo in the Far North about a week ago. It's a small grove of native on a farm. From the photo you can see what the possums don't eat: Kauri, Manuka, and Gorse. All the dead trees are Puriri, Taraire, Tawa, etc. Sadly this is a common sight in northland!

    

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16. Gerry
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    What a tragic scene Kukupa. I presume that the same pattern of death of all the palatables is repeated all across Northland wherever there is no possum control. It is pretty sad to think that possums only relatively recently moved into these forests that were/are the richest and most plant species diverse in New Zealand.

    Are deer still largely absent from Northland forests? or have they escaped from deer farms into the bush? Are goats also a big problem there?

    Down here in South Westland, possums are a menace but there is some good work going on controlling them by the most effective means. However with only low levels of helicopter deer hunting going on (poor markets for feral venison) there are high deer numbers in many places. They have stripped the forest floor bare in places and even in the seacoast virgin podocarp forest, the deer have been eating the flax and kie kie because everything else has been stripped bare. We need a good hunter like Kukupa down here to help make a difference.

    Posted 2 years ago #

17. ruby
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    Would deer not take over the ground browsing on a low scale of the species of moas and other extinct species.
    Most forrests need some browsing to keep opening up for regrowth etc,
    Very rare to see any on the east coast now due to hunting pressure,

    Posted 2 years ago #

18. kukupa
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    Wouldn't that be fun! Shooting deer out of a helicopter!
    It amazes me why they are not getting top prices from the finest restaurants for this lean meat, free range, organic, pests!
    I eat possum all the time, it's beautiful, just like wild pork. And it's free :)
    I Dont think dear will ever really take off up here in the far north, we have a real bad tick problem and it seems to take a huge toll on the young.
    Goats in the areas I visit are not in very big numbers at all, compared to possums, a very small problem.
    TB has just been found in a cow in Kaitaia, Maybe if northland had TB more pest control would be done.

    Posted 2 years ago #

19. Oscar
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    "However with only low levels of helicopter deer hunting going on (poor markets for feral venison) there are high deer numbers in many places."

    Actually Gerry, feral and domestic venison prices are quite good. It's the margins that have reduced due to higher running costs. Also the increased hassle now of NZFSA regulations, in part in response to concerns over possible 1080 residues.

    Irony, huh? :)

    Posted 2 years ago #

20. Gerry
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    I agree that the venison price has lifted a lot in the last 2 years from the very low price it got to.

    Unfortunately meanwhile the feral deer buyers have, as you say, made it very difficult to sell feral meat. Down here Silver Fern Farms (Hokitika) will only buy deer off a handful of foot hunters and also off the helicopter hunters. It isn't just about pesticide residue issues. It also seems that the deer farmers have put a lot of effort into trying to discredit the feral industry and ensure that health/food handling regulations disadvantage the feral indusrty compared to farmed venison. Ironically their venison products go to very different markets and a lot of the marketing of our farmed venison trys to portray it as coming from the wild and natural wilderness!

    There are now fewer hunters out and about in the forest down here.

    The hunters here generally also don't like hunting in dense bush. I'm sure you have seen this with many South Island hunters

    Here, most hunters take the easier option of hunting the tops, clearings and open river valleys. Hunters down here mostly steer away from the dense lowland forest because they see hunting there as being much harder. In much of the North Island I think you don't have as many alternatives to bush hunting.

    The end result is that there are significant deer populations stripping a lot of the forest floor plants down here in South Westland. There aren't many hunters because a lot of them historically hunted for sport but it was also a living because they would sell their deer to recover some of their costs and it is impossible to do this now. We saw a mob of 7 deer in our forested valley last week. My son shot one of them and spent a lot of time sitting and walking in the forest trying to get some more. My neighbour is a good hunter but doesn't bother now because he can't sell the meat. He isn't on the Silver Fern supplier list

    The open forest floor here has lost all the young fuchsia, 5-finger and broadleaf.

    It is bad news for forest ecology in the longer term.

    You need to come down here Oscar and see if you can succesfully hunt the other 6 deer in our valley!

    Posted 2 years ago #

21. ruby
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    Truly a luvly part of the south island you live in Gerry,i am very jealous,but it wouldnt be so nice if we all moved there be warned i am seriously thinking of moving over that side if only it didnt rain so much.
    Do you think the deer should be 1080 poisoned as well when the possums are done as you know i am totally opposed to the 1080 bombing runs but curious.

    Posted 2 years ago #

22. logan
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    Just to clarify a couple of points regarding that Gerry made.I too live in Haast South Westland.There is a considerable amount of pest control undertaken by the local community,with no thanks or recognition,apart from the present high dollar value of possum fur.I recently made a list of people who undertake pest control for varying reasons including conservation.As it stands there is 8% of Haast community who make an "earn" of the back of these possums.A by-catch all hunters I have spoken with include rats,stoats,mice,feral cats and the odd hare or rabbit which you would have to agree is brilliant.No-one in Haast opposes pest control,just the poison of choice,10.80 and most definitly its delivery method,aerial.Large amounts of money is spent on this continuing aerial delivery of 10.80 with no actual value for the taxpayers who foot the bill,unless you would mince maths with science and call it fact.The so called acceptable by-kill with aerial 10.80 includes Kea,Harrier Hawk,Tomtit,Robin,Weka,all documented but because the kaitiaki of our lands deem this acceptable it continues........there are other ways.As to the heli hunting of deer in Haast,its starting up again about 14th of August.No-one chases deer in winter,we did last year though but not worth it,you wait till the flush when the deer are hammering the new growth and in better condition.There is aprox 5 to 7 commercial helicopters chasing venison in South Westland,Fiordland and a growing number of recreational hunters with private helicopters.Which means more free pest control.But I feel all New Zealanders are responsible for pest control,endorsing aerial 10.80 is not what I mean,we all have a duty to make a real contribution towards conserving our fast dwindling,unique and diverse ecocologys.To that end I emplore all people who truely care about our lands to endeavour to do something about it,go spot lighting for possums with kids,see if there are any conservation trusts in your area which you could donate your time to,buy and set a stoat trap/rat/cat/possum trap because a little may help alot especially if we all try.Anyhow Ruby the deer are killed in 10.80 bombing raids as they are a pest and certainly aren't adverse to ceral baits.I have seen deer both dead and dying after 10.80 drops,my only objection is that death from 10.80 is not humane in the slighest,and the carcass is left rotting with potential for secondary poisoning due to metabolite flurocitrate.Where have our kea gone in South Westland,Save the Kea,ban 1080

    Posted 2 years ago #

23. ruby
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    Thanks for that logan ,very enlightening to read from someone at the cutting edge so to speak.
    And i agree its a very inhumane way to kill such a beautifull animal a slow agonising death for a lot of creatures sad ,

    Posted 2 years ago #

24. auckland anne
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    I'm afraid that spot-lighting or hunting for a living are a wee bit difficult to do in built-up areas like Auckland, and Wellington, and Christchurch and Dunedin CBDs...8-) Much as some might like to change that...and do, in some instances (but most of them get arrested).
    The more I listen to the debate, the more it seems there is an absolutely HUGE gap between rural life where hunting can be a legitimate income-earner, and urban life where hunting can't be the main job for everyone. In many cases this seems to have overtaken arguments about the actual methods of addressing the problems about how to deal to huge numbers of possums, rats, stoats and weasels destroying our forests and bush nationwide.
    Sorry to say, but one of the least favoured volunteer jobs in local conservation trusts is trapping. And while that's the case, there isn't the govt-funded man-power to kill enough pests by them doing the trapping instead of volunteers, fast enough to save our forests and bush. So again, how we do it cost-effectively and efficiently everywhere is the issue.

    Posted 2 years ago #

25. ruby
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    Anne they have been dropping 1080 for over 20 years and have to keep repeating it every couple of years and every time lots of other species of animals and birds die a in humane death .
    insectisdes like 1080 where designed to kill insects and are now poisoning the ecosytem in ways we cant imagine untill its to late.
    I dont want to wait till its to late .
    All poisons should be handled and used with Extreme caution not thrown all over the forrest floor to be eaten by birds insects fish and animals , or left to pass into the water catchment along with all the slowly dieing in agony creatures and rotting carcasses.
    Unbeliveable

    Posted 2 years ago #

26. auckland anne
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    Yep, we've all got that point. The question remains how we deal to the pests before they deal to other plants and animals and whether not doing anything in the meantime is itself inhumane.
    What finally turned me completely wasn't "following DoC or F&B blindly", it was when a friend, just before she died of cancer, said this...she likened having chemotherapy to using 1080. That is, she didn't want to put that stuff into her body, and if she had any other choice to prolong her life she wouldn't have, but the simple fact of the matter is that it killed cancer cells. It is very very easy to take a morally high ground position until you're actually faced with having to make the decision yourself. Yes, I think most people know about toxicity and lethal doses and by-catch and all that stuff, but no-one, no-one!! makes an important decision like about using a chemical like 1080 lightly. It's what they call "the best of a bad bunch", and I don't think I've seen anyone in this Green Room ever claim any different.
    Dwelling on the cancer analogy, if you could prolong life with something which doesn't kill even good healthy cells (by-catch) in the short-term like chemo does, but which is just as effective in blasting the cancer cells, then many people'd probably opt for that. Until something better comes along though, they'll stick with the drugs and chemo that's available. Otherwise they're saying "oh, I'll wait til something less toxic comes along", only to probably die waiting. And I should think most people would sympathize with their decision, not accuse them of being misled or making a stupid, naive choice. Or tell them to "just wait until something better comes along, dear, and hope you don't die in the meantime"...
    See, there's emotion on either side of the argument about using 1080. No-one has a monopoly on that.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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